(no subject)
Dec. 30th, 2007 01:49 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
snowystingrayMany many many spoilers for Robin Hood. And included in the discussion are references to spoilers for Harry Potter through book seven and Buffy through season two. And I realize that my opinions might be kind of unpopular at this point. And I'm also being lazy and copying stuff from a lot of comments that I have littered across LJ land for the past day, so I apologize if you've already read some of these same thoughts from me. And this post also reeks of tl;dr, clocking in at almost 4,000 words. And now enough with the warnings.
I say this as a lifelong fan of Joss Whedon shows, and an avid watcher of Lost for the past three years -- this was probably the most unexpected, shocking, and gut wrenching episode of anything I have ever seen. But it was also the ballsiest, and in some ways the most disgustingly perfect and fitting ending as well. So now please allow me to attempt to reconcile my strange love for this episode with all of my dashed hopes for what might have been.
And, okay, let me also start with a disclaimer, because I know this is something people are still really really upset over and it's actually sort of weird how okay I am with all of this already. So I will just say up front that Marian was my absolute most favourite character on the show. Even more so than Guy -- ten times more so, a million times more so -- and I FREAKING DIED when I found out that she died. And then when I found out that Guy was the one who did it... I couldn't even cry when I read it, because it was so absurd and unnatural and in no way logical after everything in 2.11 and no no no this was not happening. Not to Marian, one of the greatest female characters on TV, now or ever; not to Guy/Marian, one of the most complicated, delicately crafted ships of careful growth and unexpected beauty; NOT TO THIS FREAKING SHOW WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPY FLUFFY ANACHRONISTIC FUN.
This is not my one ideal ending for Marian, or for Guy/Marian. I can think of a million other directions for their story to take, some distinctly wish-fulfillment in nature but some plausible plot turns which might actually have happened on the show. And it kills me that they had to kill her, but the thing is -- it happened. That's the way it happened. I have gone through the stage of frustrated anger and injustice; I've pummeled the couch and screamed into a pillow; and I've accepted that if this is how things have to be, barring the off chance that I fashion a time machine and go back to offer the Robin Hood writers a bribe to end the show with Guy and Marian riding off into the sunset happily ever after (and even then, my own personal theory about time travel is that even if you can go back in time, you can't actually change things, only fit into the way things already happened, like Harry Potter. So I guess that plan wouldn't really work after all. And I digress), then I'm going to have to deal with it. If I still want to watch the show next season, I need to figure out why all of this happened and what room, if any, there is for Guy/Marian fans in the show at this point.
I do realize that that is a pretty big "if" for a lot of people, and if you decide not to continue with the show past this episode, I totally respect and understand that. At this point, keeping 2.11 as our own personal finale seems like quite an attractive option. A big part of me just wants to live in a happy cocoon of all the beautiful Guy/Marian moments this season and forget that last night ever happened.
...But the other part of me is a sick, twisted son of a gun who has become enthralled by this development and what it brings to the table for next series. And in case you couldn't tell, this episode has made me more ranty and rambly than anything since ever, because that was a ridiculously long disclaimer so it's probably time to get to the post itself.
My Thoughts on and Rationalization of 2.12 & 2.13: Or, Why I Will Still Be Watching Next Year, Even Though My Ship Imploded in on Itself
Although I kind of hate myself for caving so easily to spoilers, I ultimately think it was the right choice for me. If I had no preparation for this episode? I honestly think I might have thrown up while watching it. It also gave me a few hours to adjust to the complete absurdity of this development; so once I finally saw the episode in full, my reaction ended up being more thoughtful and conflicted than just HOLYYYYYSHIT!!!!!!! (Although that still played a big role!) Yet even being prepared for everything that I was seeing, it played out in such a contrary manner to what I had expected based on reactions I had read, which made everything a weird sort of okay with me.
Part One: Why Marian Was Made of Fail in This Episode
As I've already said, even though I identify as a fan of Guy and Marian together rather than of either distinct character, Marian has seriously been my most favourite thing of 2007. LOVE Lucy, LOVE her character, FULLY prepared to hate Guy for ruining everything that they've built up this season -- and then I found that this episode almost made me hate Marian. [And, yeah, I know I also already wrote out the Disclaimer of Doom, but I feel the need to further clarify my feelings. I LOVE MARIAN. And I do NOT agree with the character choices they made for her in this episode. But I'm just trying to deal with what they gave us, not with what I would have hoped for.] At first I was worried about Guy's literal death as a character, when we were given the short list of possible goners; and then I was worried about the death of everything Guy's character has become, when I read that he was the one to stab Marian; but what I got was the death of Marian both from this world and from everything her character has come to mean to me, whereas I think Guy's actions were a natural conclusion to the way things have gone this year.
I felt like Marian was so out of character this episode. After all her talk about how better suited she was for castle politics than for rash action, after all her careful building of "the long game" with Guy and the Sheriff rather than throwing away her position in an act of open defiance, and after all her acceptance of Guy as a real human with real feelings and real bravery and OKAY SORRY FOR THE MOST PART I CAN IN FACT BE RATIONAL ABOUT ALL OF THIS BUT THERE IS JUST NO WAY THAT YOU CAN WATCH 2.10 AND 2.11 AND SAY THAT MARIAN DID NOT HAVE AT LEAST SOME OUNCE OF RESPECT FOR AND PRIDE IN GUY. YOU JUST CANNOT!!!, I really couldn't believe all of the foolish things she was doing. Taking matters into her own hands when Robin wasn't around? Totally a Marian move. But to do it in the stupidest, most unplanned, huuuuge room for error and punishment way by attempting to sneak up on the Sheriff with a broadsword? That was not Marian to me. At all. I've seen many expressions of disbelief over Guy revealing Marian's Night Watchman identity to the Sheriff, but that action was the only thing about this scene that I actually found to be fitting and in character.
The development by the end of 2.11 hinged on the fact that Guy and Marian worked through their issues together. Guy risked everything to save Marian, and with no thought for reward. Odd that it was one of the few episodes in which he didn't propose, isn't it? Even though he only had to "name it" for her to be willing to do it, all he did was ask her to stay, to be a fixture in his life, to keep his world from sucking. And she agreed! And it was built on mutual gratitude, trust, and understanding. And goddamn it was beautiful.
So what's the next thing Marian does (and after she has once again sworn against lashing out as the Night Watchman)? She violates her word in every way possible. I'm brought back to Marian's reaction in 1.09 to Guy betraying the plan they had built together; now for Guy, everything is back in its box between them. He protected her out of two-way agreement, and once she tosses her part aside so lightly, his first instinct is to tell the Sheriff (although even then, he's still defending Marian to a certain degree). AND IT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE. I wound up hating Marian in this scene, not Guy -- even though I said I would do they exact opposite. WTF, show. WTF.
Other big shocking moment that seemed to ruin Guy for a lot of people but felt perfectly right and logical to me: when he turns down Marian's offer of reward for killing the Sheriff. To me, I think Marian just played this so wrong on so many levels. The most glaringly obvious, "WTF are you listening to what you are saying??" part came when she says, "You are a decent man, Guy. You're not a killer!" and then asks him to go kill the Sheriff. Whaaat the hell, Marian. Well, she apparently got to him more than she thought, because then he goes on to not kill the Sheriff. What are the things she offers him? Wealth, power, and position... as an alternative to wealth, power, and position? Guy has always pleaded with Marian to see the other side to him, the side which wants love, family -- something real and true and good. That's where she makes progress with him, because she has exclusive control over it. She cheapens the relationship between them by turning her love into a bartering piece, regressing back to how he thought of her in season one. Switching tactics places her in direct competition with the Sheriff, though, and on the Sheriff's own turf. Where she had before played on his conscience to get him to do something noble, here she tries to talk him into what could potentially be the most traumatic action of his life (you know, aside from WHAT ACTUALLY ENDS UP HAPPENING AUGH!!). As much as Guy resents the Sheriff, he can't help feeling some level of kinship and gratitude towards him. "You're not a killer." I really do think he listens to those words, but not in the way in which Marian intended. She taints herself for him by asking him to do the thing he never wanted to associate with her -- murder. Betrayal. I honestly think it would have been more cowardly had Guy caved to her request under these circumstances.
In trying to figure out what exactly the writers could have been doing to make Marian so ridiculously out of character, I went back over everything that has happened this season for a point of comparison. I found myself caught up on the Marian-as-an-outlaw arc, where Marian seemed unnecessarily rash and awkward and outside of her normal self -- and, incidentally, the other episodes which deal with the reality of Robin and Marian in a "til death do us part" sort of way. As much as it pained me to watch those episodes initially, I was also slightly thrilled that my suspicions were confirmed about the impossibility of Robin/Marian living together in the forest in a functional, balanced relationship. I think in some ways this episode hearkened back to that, because to me Marian became Robin. And it killed her.
The title "We Are Robin Hood" seemed more fitting than ever once I realized exactly why I hated all of Marian's actions in this episode -- because they were all Robin's actions. Her attempt on the Sheriff's life was so blunt and thoughtless and unplanned, totally devoid of the subtle finesse I have come to expect from her. The sudden reversal of her feelings about Guy, from seeing him as a misguided but potentially redeemable man to the scum whom she would rather die than touch, recalled Robin's black-and-white opinion of him, not her belief that he was simply a man "deprived of love." And then her defense of King Richard, claiming that she could not let Guy "kill England"... although I know Marian is loyal to the king, I never saw her equate him with the England she is fighting for. Those words are Robin's words; for the Marian we have seen up until this point, her England is the people back home. I apologize for not being able to find the exact comment, but if it was yours please let me know and I'll be happy to acknowledge it here -- while reading various reactions last night, I saw somebody bring up the idea that it's as if the writers realized that the only logical conclusion they were heading for was Guy/Marian, and tried to frantically backpedal to put things back on track for Robin/Marian, but then realized that that wouldn't work either. Thus, dead Marian. In many ways this season has been straying quite far from Robin/Marian, because she has grown in different areas than he. Going back to 2.09, she realizes that her place is in the castle, not in the forest. They can still care about each other and work towards the same ends, but there isn't enough overlap left in their lives for them to successfully merge into one through marriage. Yet to put into motion the inevitable Robin/Marian ending, they violated everything Marian's character has become and basically turned her into a female version of Robin. Match made in heaven, right?
WRONG. Because even then, they still can't be together. Because the writers realized they had backed themselves into a corner with this one. Because there is no way to maintain Marian as she has been this season, and have her married to Robin at the same time. Now in my own personal ideal ending, this would have opened the doors for Guy/Marian becoming canon, but I guess they decided it would be less traumatizing to have Marian RUN THROUGH WITH A SWORD than married off to Gisborne. I think the majority of this season stands as testament to why Robin and Marian operate more effectively when they're left to their own domain, either forest or castle; but this episode showed that even if they managed to overcome that disconnect, driving Marian to outlaw status literally kills her.
I LOVE Marian and I will MISS her and MOURN for her, but not as she was in this episode. Not as Mrs. Robin Hood, because that is not Marian. If the writers were so insistent on going the traditional Robin/Marian route, then maybe it's almost better that she died rather than flounder about with this relationship which is doomed to go nowhere (AND I HATE MYSELF FOR THINKING THAT SO AGAIN I MUST REITERATE THAT I LOVE LOVE LOVE MARIAN. WOE.). Yet I also hate that Marian was ultimately reduced to a woman whose life was defined by which man she chose, and I HATE that, apparently, simply being married is the pinnacle of her happiness so she can now die contented. Let me show my conflictedness once more, though, by saying that it's oddly appropriate that they actually did kill her off just seconds after she married; most romance tales end after the lovebirds finally tie the knot, implying that nothing which happens after the wedding is interesting enough to tell about, and here they took that in a very very literal sense. The only point of happiness of Robin and Marian WAS to get married, because after that they just had nowhere else to go with it. In conclusion: Marian FTW, but this episode's Marian, aka robo-Robin-clone-written-in-perfect-mimicry-of-her-one-true-love FTL.
Part Two: Why I Actually Don't Hate Guy Even Though I Declared That I Would If He Did Any One of the Things Committed in This Episode. AND THEN HE DID ALL OF THEM.
As I was quite displeased with the direction they took Marian in this episode, Guy became much easier for me to accept as a character because I felt that I at least understood where he was coming from. Again, this is not the ending I would have chosen for them, but I think in the context of Marian's radical character change, all of Guy's actions form a perfect conclusion for this season. We've all speculated over where exactly they were taking him, of why they would turn this into essentially the Season of Guy's Big Redemption Adventure if Robin still somehow had to emerge the hero. It seemed illogical to waste all of this character development, but then how could a satisfying conclusion tie into Armitage's hint that Guy would go beyond the point of no return? It almost seemed like Guy/Marian was spiraling into something bigger than the show itself, and I had a hard time reconciling it with the eventualities which I knew must come to pass (i.e. Robin/Marian). I couldn't delude myself so far into believing they would actually dump Robin and turn Guy/Marian into the true romantic core of the show (although auugggghhh the thought of how perfect this might have been will always haunt me. Oh well D:), so I guess I always kind of thought that they would just let Guy/Marian peter out or something equally disappointing... I don't know...
But I certainly didn't expect THIS, and I almost love it all the more because, however wrong and tragic it is, it's also so much bigger and more intense and decisive than anything I thought they would ever give to Guy/Marian. We've known that it was all building to something, and WOW I don't think I can imagine a more explosive finish for them. It some ways it seems to violate a lot of the hopes and expectations I had built around them, but now that I'm learning to accept it all, I find myself quite delighted by the OVERWHELMING AMOUNTS OF TRAGIC, DRAMATIC IRONY spilling out of this season.
If you have a chance, you should read![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
thepodsquad's reaction to the stabbing scene, because I feel like it's a direct transcript of my brain, and the strange and terrible beauty of that moment. Somehow I'm compelled to include the stabbing as the consummation of every BEST SCENE EVER we have had so far. The driving intensity, the sheer physicality of it, the quivering pseudo-embrace -- it's like a twisted travesty of everything gorgeously romantic they should have been, a redirection of Guy's passion into something as moving and powerful as it would have been if they were making love instead of tearing themselves to pieces. And, ahem, consummation indeed (borrowed from nim4's very lovely screencap post).
I discussed some of this withcrumpeteer, but I really don't see this development as being in conflict with Guy becoming more human this season. If anything, I think it's what drove him to it even more. Full of passion for Marian, passion which she put there, the result of growth that they went through together, all thwarted in a moment -- his reaction was anything but that of a man who "feel[s] nothing," as he seemed to profess in 2.03. If he had to kill Marian, I love that it came at a point where he can can do it and yet cry over her at the same time and want her and want to end her and aughhhhh!! With no more Marian I am now completely wrapped up in Guy's angst, and I think next season could be awesome for him. Despite the death and destruction on the horizon for him, I really hope they play it out to its bitter, conflicted end rather than just have him go back to calm, cool killing machine. I want Guy to have Snape levels of angst -- because who didn't know that he was going to die in DH? And then who didn't bawl all through The Prince's Tale anyway? Perhaps this means that Guy/Marian isn't really over, either; I declare it to be the new Snape/Lily. Corny and pointless and pathetic and predictable, but epic and moving and ultimately redemptive. ...Or maybe I'm the only one who feels that way about it, but it's my own private analogy for now.
And then I am also taken back to one of my all time favourite episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "I Only Have Eyes For You." If you're not familiar with the show/that episode, their school is haunted by the ghost of a young man who was having a forbidden affair with his teacher; she tried to end it, and he ended up killing her and then himself. The boy's spirit begins possessing people and playing out his trauma, sucking Buffy into her own conflict with Angel. This line from that episode absolutely kills me when I think of the places it might take Guy next season: "James [aka BUFFY! aka GUY!] destroyed the one person he loved the most in a moment of blind passion. And that's not something you forgive. No matter why he did what he did. And no matter if he knows now that it was wrong and selfish and stupid." Oh mannn. I burn with curiosity to see what happens with Guy next year, because I think if they play it right it could end up redeeming the fact that they sent Guy/Marian to an early grave. And I have so many more thoughts about how this changes my views of this season as a whole, and what I hope they do next season, but this post is already an impossibly unreadable length so I will save all that for another time.
I say this as a lifelong fan of Joss Whedon shows, and an avid watcher of Lost for the past three years -- this was probably the most unexpected, shocking, and gut wrenching episode of anything I have ever seen. But it was also the ballsiest, and in some ways the most disgustingly perfect and fitting ending as well. So now please allow me to attempt to reconcile my strange love for this episode with all of my dashed hopes for what might have been.
And, okay, let me also start with a disclaimer, because I know this is something people are still really really upset over and it's actually sort of weird how okay I am with all of this already. So I will just say up front that Marian was my absolute most favourite character on the show. Even more so than Guy -- ten times more so, a million times more so -- and I FREAKING DIED when I found out that she died. And then when I found out that Guy was the one who did it... I couldn't even cry when I read it, because it was so absurd and unnatural and in no way logical after everything in 2.11 and no no no this was not happening. Not to Marian, one of the greatest female characters on TV, now or ever; not to Guy/Marian, one of the most complicated, delicately crafted ships of careful growth and unexpected beauty; NOT TO THIS FREAKING SHOW WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPY FLUFFY ANACHRONISTIC FUN.
This is not my one ideal ending for Marian, or for Guy/Marian. I can think of a million other directions for their story to take, some distinctly wish-fulfillment in nature but some plausible plot turns which might actually have happened on the show. And it kills me that they had to kill her, but the thing is -- it happened. That's the way it happened. I have gone through the stage of frustrated anger and injustice; I've pummeled the couch and screamed into a pillow; and I've accepted that if this is how things have to be, barring the off chance that I fashion a time machine and go back to offer the Robin Hood writers a bribe to end the show with Guy and Marian riding off into the sunset happily ever after (and even then, my own personal theory about time travel is that even if you can go back in time, you can't actually change things, only fit into the way things already happened, like Harry Potter. So I guess that plan wouldn't really work after all. And I digress), then I'm going to have to deal with it. If I still want to watch the show next season, I need to figure out why all of this happened and what room, if any, there is for Guy/Marian fans in the show at this point.
I do realize that that is a pretty big "if" for a lot of people, and if you decide not to continue with the show past this episode, I totally respect and understand that. At this point, keeping 2.11 as our own personal finale seems like quite an attractive option. A big part of me just wants to live in a happy cocoon of all the beautiful Guy/Marian moments this season and forget that last night ever happened.
...But the other part of me is a sick, twisted son of a gun who has become enthralled by this development and what it brings to the table for next series. And in case you couldn't tell, this episode has made me more ranty and rambly than anything since ever, because that was a ridiculously long disclaimer so it's probably time to get to the post itself.
My Thoughts on and Rationalization of 2.12 & 2.13: Or, Why I Will Still Be Watching Next Year, Even Though My Ship Imploded in on Itself
Although I kind of hate myself for caving so easily to spoilers, I ultimately think it was the right choice for me. If I had no preparation for this episode? I honestly think I might have thrown up while watching it. It also gave me a few hours to adjust to the complete absurdity of this development; so once I finally saw the episode in full, my reaction ended up being more thoughtful and conflicted than just HOLYYYYYSHIT!!!!!!! (Although that still played a big role!) Yet even being prepared for everything that I was seeing, it played out in such a contrary manner to what I had expected based on reactions I had read, which made everything a weird sort of okay with me.
Part One: Why Marian Was Made of Fail in This Episode
As I've already said, even though I identify as a fan of Guy and Marian together rather than of either distinct character, Marian has seriously been my most favourite thing of 2007. LOVE Lucy, LOVE her character, FULLY prepared to hate Guy for ruining everything that they've built up this season -- and then I found that this episode almost made me hate Marian. [And, yeah, I know I also already wrote out the Disclaimer of Doom, but I feel the need to further clarify my feelings. I LOVE MARIAN. And I do NOT agree with the character choices they made for her in this episode. But I'm just trying to deal with what they gave us, not with what I would have hoped for.] At first I was worried about Guy's literal death as a character, when we were given the short list of possible goners; and then I was worried about the death of everything Guy's character has become, when I read that he was the one to stab Marian; but what I got was the death of Marian both from this world and from everything her character has come to mean to me, whereas I think Guy's actions were a natural conclusion to the way things have gone this year.
I felt like Marian was so out of character this episode. After all her talk about how better suited she was for castle politics than for rash action, after all her careful building of "the long game" with Guy and the Sheriff rather than throwing away her position in an act of open defiance, and after all her acceptance of Guy as a real human with real feelings and real bravery and OKAY SORRY FOR THE MOST PART I CAN IN FACT BE RATIONAL ABOUT ALL OF THIS BUT THERE IS JUST NO WAY THAT YOU CAN WATCH 2.10 AND 2.11 AND SAY THAT MARIAN DID NOT HAVE AT LEAST SOME OUNCE OF RESPECT FOR AND PRIDE IN GUY. YOU JUST CANNOT!!!, I really couldn't believe all of the foolish things she was doing. Taking matters into her own hands when Robin wasn't around? Totally a Marian move. But to do it in the stupidest, most unplanned, huuuuge room for error and punishment way by attempting to sneak up on the Sheriff with a broadsword? That was not Marian to me. At all. I've seen many expressions of disbelief over Guy revealing Marian's Night Watchman identity to the Sheriff, but that action was the only thing about this scene that I actually found to be fitting and in character.
The development by the end of 2.11 hinged on the fact that Guy and Marian worked through their issues together. Guy risked everything to save Marian, and with no thought for reward. Odd that it was one of the few episodes in which he didn't propose, isn't it? Even though he only had to "name it" for her to be willing to do it, all he did was ask her to stay, to be a fixture in his life, to keep his world from sucking. And she agreed! And it was built on mutual gratitude, trust, and understanding. And goddamn it was beautiful.
So what's the next thing Marian does (and after she has once again sworn against lashing out as the Night Watchman)? She violates her word in every way possible. I'm brought back to Marian's reaction in 1.09 to Guy betraying the plan they had built together; now for Guy, everything is back in its box between them. He protected her out of two-way agreement, and once she tosses her part aside so lightly, his first instinct is to tell the Sheriff (although even then, he's still defending Marian to a certain degree). AND IT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE. I wound up hating Marian in this scene, not Guy -- even though I said I would do they exact opposite. WTF, show. WTF.
Other big shocking moment that seemed to ruin Guy for a lot of people but felt perfectly right and logical to me: when he turns down Marian's offer of reward for killing the Sheriff. To me, I think Marian just played this so wrong on so many levels. The most glaringly obvious, "WTF are you listening to what you are saying??" part came when she says, "You are a decent man, Guy. You're not a killer!" and then asks him to go kill the Sheriff. Whaaat the hell, Marian. Well, she apparently got to him more than she thought, because then he goes on to not kill the Sheriff. What are the things she offers him? Wealth, power, and position... as an alternative to wealth, power, and position? Guy has always pleaded with Marian to see the other side to him, the side which wants love, family -- something real and true and good. That's where she makes progress with him, because she has exclusive control over it. She cheapens the relationship between them by turning her love into a bartering piece, regressing back to how he thought of her in season one. Switching tactics places her in direct competition with the Sheriff, though, and on the Sheriff's own turf. Where she had before played on his conscience to get him to do something noble, here she tries to talk him into what could potentially be the most traumatic action of his life (you know, aside from WHAT ACTUALLY ENDS UP HAPPENING AUGH!!). As much as Guy resents the Sheriff, he can't help feeling some level of kinship and gratitude towards him. "You're not a killer." I really do think he listens to those words, but not in the way in which Marian intended. She taints herself for him by asking him to do the thing he never wanted to associate with her -- murder. Betrayal. I honestly think it would have been more cowardly had Guy caved to her request under these circumstances.
In trying to figure out what exactly the writers could have been doing to make Marian so ridiculously out of character, I went back over everything that has happened this season for a point of comparison. I found myself caught up on the Marian-as-an-outlaw arc, where Marian seemed unnecessarily rash and awkward and outside of her normal self -- and, incidentally, the other episodes which deal with the reality of Robin and Marian in a "til death do us part" sort of way. As much as it pained me to watch those episodes initially, I was also slightly thrilled that my suspicions were confirmed about the impossibility of Robin/Marian living together in the forest in a functional, balanced relationship. I think in some ways this episode hearkened back to that, because to me Marian became Robin. And it killed her.
The title "We Are Robin Hood" seemed more fitting than ever once I realized exactly why I hated all of Marian's actions in this episode -- because they were all Robin's actions. Her attempt on the Sheriff's life was so blunt and thoughtless and unplanned, totally devoid of the subtle finesse I have come to expect from her. The sudden reversal of her feelings about Guy, from seeing him as a misguided but potentially redeemable man to the scum whom she would rather die than touch, recalled Robin's black-and-white opinion of him, not her belief that he was simply a man "deprived of love." And then her defense of King Richard, claiming that she could not let Guy "kill England"... although I know Marian is loyal to the king, I never saw her equate him with the England she is fighting for. Those words are Robin's words; for the Marian we have seen up until this point, her England is the people back home. I apologize for not being able to find the exact comment, but if it was yours please let me know and I'll be happy to acknowledge it here -- while reading various reactions last night, I saw somebody bring up the idea that it's as if the writers realized that the only logical conclusion they were heading for was Guy/Marian, and tried to frantically backpedal to put things back on track for Robin/Marian, but then realized that that wouldn't work either. Thus, dead Marian. In many ways this season has been straying quite far from Robin/Marian, because she has grown in different areas than he. Going back to 2.09, she realizes that her place is in the castle, not in the forest. They can still care about each other and work towards the same ends, but there isn't enough overlap left in their lives for them to successfully merge into one through marriage. Yet to put into motion the inevitable Robin/Marian ending, they violated everything Marian's character has become and basically turned her into a female version of Robin. Match made in heaven, right?
WRONG. Because even then, they still can't be together. Because the writers realized they had backed themselves into a corner with this one. Because there is no way to maintain Marian as she has been this season, and have her married to Robin at the same time. Now in my own personal ideal ending, this would have opened the doors for Guy/Marian becoming canon, but I guess they decided it would be less traumatizing to have Marian RUN THROUGH WITH A SWORD than married off to Gisborne. I think the majority of this season stands as testament to why Robin and Marian operate more effectively when they're left to their own domain, either forest or castle; but this episode showed that even if they managed to overcome that disconnect, driving Marian to outlaw status literally kills her.
I LOVE Marian and I will MISS her and MOURN for her, but not as she was in this episode. Not as Mrs. Robin Hood, because that is not Marian. If the writers were so insistent on going the traditional Robin/Marian route, then maybe it's almost better that she died rather than flounder about with this relationship which is doomed to go nowhere (AND I HATE MYSELF FOR THINKING THAT SO AGAIN I MUST REITERATE THAT I LOVE LOVE LOVE MARIAN. WOE.). Yet I also hate that Marian was ultimately reduced to a woman whose life was defined by which man she chose, and I HATE that, apparently, simply being married is the pinnacle of her happiness so she can now die contented. Let me show my conflictedness once more, though, by saying that it's oddly appropriate that they actually did kill her off just seconds after she married; most romance tales end after the lovebirds finally tie the knot, implying that nothing which happens after the wedding is interesting enough to tell about, and here they took that in a very very literal sense. The only point of happiness of Robin and Marian WAS to get married, because after that they just had nowhere else to go with it. In conclusion: Marian FTW, but this episode's Marian, aka robo-Robin-clone-written-in-perfect-mimicry-of-her-one-true-love FTL.
Part Two: Why I Actually Don't Hate Guy Even Though I Declared That I Would If He Did Any One of the Things Committed in This Episode. AND THEN HE DID ALL OF THEM.
As I was quite displeased with the direction they took Marian in this episode, Guy became much easier for me to accept as a character because I felt that I at least understood where he was coming from. Again, this is not the ending I would have chosen for them, but I think in the context of Marian's radical character change, all of Guy's actions form a perfect conclusion for this season. We've all speculated over where exactly they were taking him, of why they would turn this into essentially the Season of Guy's Big Redemption Adventure if Robin still somehow had to emerge the hero. It seemed illogical to waste all of this character development, but then how could a satisfying conclusion tie into Armitage's hint that Guy would go beyond the point of no return? It almost seemed like Guy/Marian was spiraling into something bigger than the show itself, and I had a hard time reconciling it with the eventualities which I knew must come to pass (i.e. Robin/Marian). I couldn't delude myself so far into believing they would actually dump Robin and turn Guy/Marian into the true romantic core of the show (although auugggghhh the thought of how perfect this might have been will always haunt me. Oh well D:), so I guess I always kind of thought that they would just let Guy/Marian peter out or something equally disappointing... I don't know...
But I certainly didn't expect THIS, and I almost love it all the more because, however wrong and tragic it is, it's also so much bigger and more intense and decisive than anything I thought they would ever give to Guy/Marian. We've known that it was all building to something, and WOW I don't think I can imagine a more explosive finish for them. It some ways it seems to violate a lot of the hopes and expectations I had built around them, but now that I'm learning to accept it all, I find myself quite delighted by the OVERWHELMING AMOUNTS OF TRAGIC, DRAMATIC IRONY spilling out of this season.
If you have a chance, you should read
thepodsquad's reaction to the stabbing scene, because I feel like it's a direct transcript of my brain, and the strange and terrible beauty of that moment. Somehow I'm compelled to include the stabbing as the consummation of every BEST SCENE EVER we have had so far. The driving intensity, the sheer physicality of it, the quivering pseudo-embrace -- it's like a twisted travesty of everything gorgeously romantic they should have been, a redirection of Guy's passion into something as moving and powerful as it would have been if they were making love instead of tearing themselves to pieces. And, ahem, consummation indeed (borrowed from nim4's very lovely screencap post).I discussed some of this with
crumpeteer, but I really don't see this development as being in conflict with Guy becoming more human this season. If anything, I think it's what drove him to it even more. Full of passion for Marian, passion which she put there, the result of growth that they went through together, all thwarted in a moment -- his reaction was anything but that of a man who "feel[s] nothing," as he seemed to profess in 2.03. If he had to kill Marian, I love that it came at a point where he can can do it and yet cry over her at the same time and want her and want to end her and aughhhhh!! With no more Marian I am now completely wrapped up in Guy's angst, and I think next season could be awesome for him. Despite the death and destruction on the horizon for him, I really hope they play it out to its bitter, conflicted end rather than just have him go back to calm, cool killing machine. I want Guy to have Snape levels of angst -- because who didn't know that he was going to die in DH? And then who didn't bawl all through The Prince's Tale anyway? Perhaps this means that Guy/Marian isn't really over, either; I declare it to be the new Snape/Lily. Corny and pointless and pathetic and predictable, but epic and moving and ultimately redemptive. ...Or maybe I'm the only one who feels that way about it, but it's my own private analogy for now.And then I am also taken back to one of my all time favourite episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "I Only Have Eyes For You." If you're not familiar with the show/that episode, their school is haunted by the ghost of a young man who was having a forbidden affair with his teacher; she tried to end it, and he ended up killing her and then himself. The boy's spirit begins possessing people and playing out his trauma, sucking Buffy into her own conflict with Angel. This line from that episode absolutely kills me when I think of the places it might take Guy next season: "James [aka BUFFY! aka GUY!] destroyed the one person he loved the most in a moment of blind passion. And that's not something you forgive. No matter why he did what he did. And no matter if he knows now that it was wrong and selfish and stupid." Oh mannn. I burn with curiosity to see what happens with Guy next year, because I think if they play it right it could end up redeeming the fact that they sent Guy/Marian to an early grave. And I have so many more thoughts about how this changes my views of this season as a whole, and what I hope they do next season, but this post is already an impossibly unreadable length so I will save all that for another time.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Re: On Guy...
Date: 2008-01-04 07:58 pm (UTC)But more important than his heartbreak was his selfishness. He just couldn’t let Marian “belong” to anyone else. He was like a willful child who throws his toy against the wall and then cries when it breaks. The question is, will he regret it? I mean, he already does, of course. But will he change because of it? Will he change for the better?
That is such an apt comparison, and why I think there's still a lot of room left to explore Guy's character. Going back to the Snape/Lily parallel, Snape's motivation continued to be very obsessive, selfish, and single-minded, even when he managed to redirect those feelings to fighting for something good. He never became a kind or compassionate person, but he was able to make his shortcomings work to his advantage. So, no, I don't think it's entirely implausible to take Guy on a similar journey, but I guess we'll have to wait and see!
Oh, and I just went and read the entry you posted on your journal, and there are soooo many great things to comment on. So, um, expect even more rambling from me in the near future (sorry it's taking a while, I just have such a flurry of Robin Hood meta swirling around in my inbox).