(no subject)

[snowystingray]

Many many many spoilers for Robin Hood. And included in the discussion are references to spoilers for Harry Potter through book seven and Buffy through season two. And I realize that my opinions might be kind of unpopular at this point. And I'm also being lazy and copying stuff from a lot of comments that I have littered across LJ land for the past day, so I apologize if you've already read some of these same thoughts from me. And this post also reeks of tl;dr, clocking in at almost 4,000 words. And now enough with the warnings.

I say this as a lifelong fan of Joss Whedon shows, and an avid watcher of Lost for the past three years -- this was probably the most unexpected, shocking, and gut wrenching episode of anything I have ever seen. But it was also the ballsiest, and in some ways the most disgustingly perfect and fitting ending as well. So now please allow me to attempt to reconcile my strange love for this episode with all of my dashed hopes for what might have been.

And, okay, let me also start with a disclaimer, because I know this is something people are still really really upset over and it's actually sort of weird how okay I am with all of this already. So I will just say up front that Marian was my absolute most favourite character on the show. Even more so than Guy -- ten times more so, a million times more so -- and I FREAKING DIED when I found out that she died. And then when I found out that Guy was the one who did it... I couldn't even cry when I read it, because it was so absurd and unnatural and in no way logical after everything in 2.11 and no no no this was not happening. Not to Marian, one of the greatest female characters on TV, now or ever; not to Guy/Marian, one of the most complicated, delicately crafted ships of careful growth and unexpected beauty; NOT TO THIS FREAKING SHOW WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPY FLUFFY ANACHRONISTIC FUN.

This is not my one ideal ending for Marian, or for Guy/Marian. I can think of a million other directions for their story to take, some distinctly wish-fulfillment in nature but some plausible plot turns which might actually have happened on the show. And it kills me that they had to kill her, but the thing is -- it happened. That's the way it happened. I have gone through the stage of frustrated anger and injustice; I've pummeled the couch and screamed into a pillow; and I've accepted that if this is how things have to be, barring the off chance that I fashion a time machine and go back to offer the Robin Hood writers a bribe to end the show with Guy and Marian riding off into the sunset happily ever after (and even then, my own personal theory about time travel is that even if you can go back in time, you can't actually change things, only fit into the way things already happened, like Harry Potter. So I guess that plan wouldn't really work after all. And I digress), then I'm going to have to deal with it. If I still want to watch the show next season, I need to figure out why all of this happened and what room, if any, there is for Guy/Marian fans in the show at this point.

I do realize that that is a pretty big "if" for a lot of people, and if you decide not to continue with the show past this episode, I totally respect and understand that. At this point, keeping 2.11 as our own personal finale seems like quite an attractive option. A big part of me just wants to live in a happy cocoon of all the beautiful Guy/Marian moments this season and forget that last night ever happened.

...But the other part of me is a sick, twisted son of a gun who has become enthralled by this development and what it brings to the table for next series. And in case you couldn't tell, this episode has made me more ranty and rambly than anything since ever, because that was a ridiculously long disclaimer so it's probably time to get to the post itself.

My Thoughts on and Rationalization of 2.12 & 2.13: Or, Why I Will Still Be Watching Next Year, Even Though My Ship Imploded in on Itself

Although I kind of hate myself for caving so easily to spoilers, I ultimately think it was the right choice for me. If I had no preparation for this episode? I honestly think I might have thrown up while watching it. It also gave me a few hours to adjust to the complete absurdity of this development; so once I finally saw the episode in full, my reaction ended up being more thoughtful and conflicted than just HOLYYYYYSHIT!!!!!!! (Although that still played a big role!) Yet even being prepared for everything that I was seeing, it played out in such a contrary manner to what I had expected based on reactions I had read, which made everything a weird sort of okay with me.

Part One: Why Marian Was Made of Fail in This Episode

As I've already said, even though I identify as a fan of Guy and Marian together rather than of either distinct character, Marian has seriously been my most favourite thing of 2007. LOVE Lucy, LOVE her character, FULLY prepared to hate Guy for ruining everything that they've built up this season -- and then I found that this episode almost made me hate Marian. [And, yeah, I know I also already wrote out the Disclaimer of Doom, but I feel the need to further clarify my feelings. I LOVE MARIAN. And I do NOT agree with the character choices they made for her in this episode. But I'm just trying to deal with what they gave us, not with what I would have hoped for.] At first I was worried about Guy's literal death as a character, when we were given the short list of possible goners; and then I was worried about the death of everything Guy's character has become, when I read that he was the one to stab Marian; but what I got was the death of Marian both from this world and from everything her character has come to mean to me, whereas I think Guy's actions were a natural conclusion to the way things have gone this year.

I felt like Marian was so out of character this episode. After all her talk about how better suited she was for castle politics than for rash action, after all her careful building of "the long game" with Guy and the Sheriff rather than throwing away her position in an act of open defiance, and after all her acceptance of Guy as a real human with real feelings and real bravery and OKAY SORRY FOR THE MOST PART I CAN IN FACT BE RATIONAL ABOUT ALL OF THIS BUT THERE IS JUST NO WAY THAT YOU CAN WATCH 2.10 AND 2.11 AND SAY THAT MARIAN DID NOT HAVE AT LEAST SOME OUNCE OF RESPECT FOR AND PRIDE IN GUY. YOU JUST CANNOT!!!, I really couldn't believe all of the foolish things she was doing. Taking matters into her own hands when Robin wasn't around? Totally a Marian move. But to do it in the stupidest, most unplanned, huuuuge room for error and punishment way by attempting to sneak up on the Sheriff with a broadsword? That was not Marian to me. At all. I've seen many expressions of disbelief over Guy revealing Marian's Night Watchman identity to the Sheriff, but that action was the only thing about this scene that I actually found to be fitting and in character.

The development by the end of 2.11 hinged on the fact that Guy and Marian worked through their issues together. Guy risked everything to save Marian, and with no thought for reward. Odd that it was one of the few episodes in which he didn't propose, isn't it? Even though he only had to "name it" for her to be willing to do it, all he did was ask her to stay, to be a fixture in his life, to keep his world from sucking. And she agreed! And it was built on mutual gratitude, trust, and understanding. And goddamn it was beautiful.

So what's the next thing Marian does (and after she has once again sworn against lashing out as the Night Watchman)? She violates her word in every way possible. I'm brought back to Marian's reaction in 1.09 to Guy betraying the plan they had built together; now for Guy, everything is back in its box between them. He protected her out of two-way agreement, and once she tosses her part aside so lightly, his first instinct is to tell the Sheriff (although even then, he's still defending Marian to a certain degree). AND IT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE. I wound up hating Marian in this scene, not Guy -- even though I said I would do they exact opposite. WTF, show. WTF.

Other big shocking moment that seemed to ruin Guy for a lot of people but felt perfectly right and logical to me: when he turns down Marian's offer of reward for killing the Sheriff. To me, I think Marian just played this so wrong on so many levels. The most glaringly obvious, "WTF are you listening to what you are saying??" part came when she says, "You are a decent man, Guy. You're not a killer!" and then asks him to go kill the Sheriff. Whaaat the hell, Marian. Well, she apparently got to him more than she thought, because then he goes on to not kill the Sheriff. What are the things she offers him? Wealth, power, and position... as an alternative to wealth, power, and position? Guy has always pleaded with Marian to see the other side to him, the side which wants love, family -- something real and true and good. That's where she makes progress with him, because she has exclusive control over it. She cheapens the relationship between them by turning her love into a bartering piece, regressing back to how he thought of her in season one. Switching tactics places her in direct competition with the Sheriff, though, and on the Sheriff's own turf. Where she had before played on his conscience to get him to do something noble, here she tries to talk him into what could potentially be the most traumatic action of his life (you know, aside from WHAT ACTUALLY ENDS UP HAPPENING AUGH!!). As much as Guy resents the Sheriff, he can't help feeling some level of kinship and gratitude towards him. "You're not a killer." I really do think he listens to those words, but not in the way in which Marian intended. She taints herself for him by asking him to do the thing he never wanted to associate with her -- murder. Betrayal. I honestly think it would have been more cowardly had Guy caved to her request under these circumstances.

In trying to figure out what exactly the writers could have been doing to make Marian so ridiculously out of character, I went back over everything that has happened this season for a point of comparison. I found myself caught up on the Marian-as-an-outlaw arc, where Marian seemed unnecessarily rash and awkward and outside of her normal self -- and, incidentally, the other episodes which deal with the reality of Robin and Marian in a "til death do us part" sort of way. As much as it pained me to watch those episodes initially, I was also slightly thrilled that my suspicions were confirmed about the impossibility of Robin/Marian living together in the forest in a functional, balanced relationship. I think in some ways this episode hearkened back to that, because to me Marian became Robin. And it killed her.

The title "We Are Robin Hood" seemed more fitting than ever once I realized exactly why I hated all of Marian's actions in this episode -- because they were all Robin's actions. Her attempt on the Sheriff's life was so blunt and thoughtless and unplanned, totally devoid of the subtle finesse I have come to expect from her. The sudden reversal of her feelings about Guy, from seeing him as a misguided but potentially redeemable man to the scum whom she would rather die than touch, recalled Robin's black-and-white opinion of him, not her belief that he was simply a man "deprived of love." And then her defense of King Richard, claiming that she could not let Guy "kill England"... although I know Marian is loyal to the king, I never saw her equate him with the England she is fighting for. Those words are Robin's words; for the Marian we have seen up until this point, her England is the people back home. I apologize for not being able to find the exact comment, but if it was yours please let me know and I'll be happy to acknowledge it here -- while reading various reactions last night, I saw somebody bring up the idea that it's as if the writers realized that the only logical conclusion they were heading for was Guy/Marian, and tried to frantically backpedal to put things back on track for Robin/Marian, but then realized that that wouldn't work either. Thus, dead Marian. In many ways this season has been straying quite far from Robin/Marian, because she has grown in different areas than he. Going back to 2.09, she realizes that her place is in the castle, not in the forest. They can still care about each other and work towards the same ends, but there isn't enough overlap left in their lives for them to successfully merge into one through marriage. Yet to put into motion the inevitable Robin/Marian ending, they violated everything Marian's character has become and basically turned her into a female version of Robin. Match made in heaven, right?

WRONG. Because even then, they still can't be together. Because the writers realized they had backed themselves into a corner with this one. Because there is no way to maintain Marian as she has been this season, and have her married to Robin at the same time. Now in my own personal ideal ending, this would have opened the doors for Guy/Marian becoming canon, but I guess they decided it would be less traumatizing to have Marian RUN THROUGH WITH A SWORD than married off to Gisborne. I think the majority of this season stands as testament to why Robin and Marian operate more effectively when they're left to their own domain, either forest or castle; but this episode showed that even if they managed to overcome that disconnect, driving Marian to outlaw status literally kills her.

I LOVE Marian and I will MISS her and MOURN for her, but not as she was in this episode. Not as Mrs. Robin Hood, because that is not Marian. If the writers were so insistent on going the traditional Robin/Marian route, then maybe it's almost better that she died rather than flounder about with this relationship which is doomed to go nowhere (AND I HATE MYSELF FOR THINKING THAT SO AGAIN I MUST REITERATE THAT I LOVE LOVE LOVE MARIAN. WOE.). Yet I also hate that Marian was ultimately reduced to a woman whose life was defined by which man she chose, and I HATE that, apparently, simply being married is the pinnacle of her happiness so she can now die contented. Let me show my conflictedness once more, though, by saying that it's oddly appropriate that they actually did kill her off just seconds after she married; most romance tales end after the lovebirds finally tie the knot, implying that nothing which happens after the wedding is interesting enough to tell about, and here they took that in a very very literal sense. The only point of happiness of Robin and Marian WAS to get married, because after that they just had nowhere else to go with it. In conclusion: Marian FTW, but this episode's Marian, aka robo-Robin-clone-written-in-perfect-mimicry-of-her-one-true-love FTL.

Part Two: Why I Actually Don't Hate Guy Even Though I Declared That I Would If He Did Any One of the Things Committed in This Episode. AND THEN HE DID ALL OF THEM.

As I was quite displeased with the direction they took Marian in this episode, Guy became much easier for me to accept as a character because I felt that I at least understood where he was coming from. Again, this is not the ending I would have chosen for them, but I think in the context of Marian's radical character change, all of Guy's actions form a perfect conclusion for this season. We've all speculated over where exactly they were taking him, of why they would turn this into essentially the Season of Guy's Big Redemption Adventure if Robin still somehow had to emerge the hero. It seemed illogical to waste all of this character development, but then how could a satisfying conclusion tie into Armitage's hint that Guy would go beyond the point of no return? It almost seemed like Guy/Marian was spiraling into something bigger than the show itself, and I had a hard time reconciling it with the eventualities which I knew must come to pass (i.e. Robin/Marian). I couldn't delude myself so far into believing they would actually dump Robin and turn Guy/Marian into the true romantic core of the show (although auugggghhh the thought of how perfect this might have been will always haunt me. Oh well D:), so I guess I always kind of thought that they would just let Guy/Marian peter out or something equally disappointing... I don't know...

But I certainly didn't expect THIS, and I almost love it all the more because, however wrong and tragic it is, it's also so much bigger and more intense and decisive than anything I thought they would ever give to Guy/Marian. We've known that it was all building to something, and WOW I don't think I can imagine a more explosive finish for them. It some ways it seems to violate a lot of the hopes and expectations I had built around them, but now that I'm learning to accept it all, I find myself quite delighted by the OVERWHELMING AMOUNTS OF TRAGIC, DRAMATIC IRONY spilling out of this season.

If you have a chance, you should read thepodsquad's reaction to the stabbing scene, because I feel like it's a direct transcript of my brain, and the strange and terrible beauty of that moment. Somehow I'm compelled to include the stabbing as the consummation of every BEST SCENE EVER we have had so far. The driving intensity, the sheer physicality of it, the quivering pseudo-embrace -- it's like a twisted travesty of everything gorgeously romantic they should have been, a redirection of Guy's passion into something as moving and powerful as it would have been if they were making love instead of tearing themselves to pieces. And, ahem, consummation indeed (borrowed from nim4's very lovely screencap post).

I discussed some of this with crumpeteer, but I really don't see this development as being in conflict with Guy becoming more human this season. If anything, I think it's what drove him to it even more. Full of passion for Marian, passion which she put there, the result of growth that they went through together, all thwarted in a moment -- his reaction was anything but that of a man who "feel[s] nothing," as he seemed to profess in 2.03. If he had to kill Marian, I love that it came at a point where he can can do it and yet cry over her at the same time and want her and want to end her and aughhhhh!! With no more Marian I am now completely wrapped up in Guy's angst, and I think next season could be awesome for him. Despite the death and destruction on the horizon for him, I really hope they play it out to its bitter, conflicted end rather than just have him go back to calm, cool killing machine. I want Guy to have Snape levels of angst -- because who didn't know that he was going to die in DH? And then who didn't bawl all through The Prince's Tale anyway? Perhaps this means that Guy/Marian isn't really over, either; I declare it to be the new Snape/Lily. Corny and pointless and pathetic and predictable, but epic and moving and ultimately redemptive. ...Or maybe I'm the only one who feels that way about it, but it's my own private analogy for now.

And then I am also taken back to one of my all time favourite episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "I Only Have Eyes For You." If you're not familiar with the show/that episode, their school is haunted by the ghost of a young man who was having a forbidden affair with his teacher; she tried to end it, and he ended up killing her and then himself. The boy's spirit begins possessing people and playing out his trauma, sucking Buffy into her own conflict with Angel. This line from that episode absolutely kills me when I think of the places it might take Guy next season: "James [aka BUFFY! aka GUY!] destroyed the one person he loved the most in a moment of blind passion. And that's not something you forgive. No matter why he did what he did. And no matter if he knows now that it was wrong and selfish and stupid." Oh mannn. I burn with curiosity to see what happens with Guy next year, because I think if they play it right it could end up redeeming the fact that they sent Guy/Marian to an early grave. And I have so many more thoughts about how this changes my views of this season as a whole, and what I hope they do next season, but this post is already an impossibly unreadable length so I will save all that for another time.

Comments

[dollsome.livejournal.com]

So, I still don't really think I can talk about this in a way that isn't repeating "IT'S NOT FAIR, IT'S NOT FAIR, MY SOUL HURTS" or some variation thereof, but this was a really, really interesting read, and you made some awesome points. I particularly love your analysis of Marian being turned into a female version of Robin, because really, she was incredibly off in this episode -- like you said, from the time she abruptly decides to run the Sheriff through with a freakin' broadsword. I also am weirdly, savagely comforted by the notion that the reason the writers were driven to do this was because they realized how lame (I should so have a better word, but I . . . do not) Robin/Marian really is, and how if Guy and Marian had been kept going in the way they had been, it would've been harder and harder to justify her not being with him.

I loved your analysis of The Scene That Prompted The Death Of My Soul, too, even though . . . I cannot quite love the scene itself because it's the worst thing that's ever happened to me. (Or, um, at least it seems that way in this present moment.) If he had to run her through with a sword, I'm glad they did it that way. I'll just leave it at that.

You're going to have to report back to us in terms of season three Guy. It's so long from now that I'll probably be quite over it by then -- let us hope -- but I really don't think I'm going to feel all that compelled to watch it. The idea of this show without Lucy just really doesn't appeal to me.

(Although if Guy is guilt-ridden and haunted by appiritions of Marian, or something, I might have to check that out on YouTube. Because if any ship can continue to Out-Best Scene Ever themselves even after one of them is dead, it's these two, goddammit!)

Also, I ONLY HAVE EYES FOR YOU AND SNAPE/LILY FTW!!!

[dollsome.livejournal.com]

. . . and by 'report back to us,' I'm pretty sure I just meant me. Wow. Caffeinelessness and grief have made me entirely crazy!

[snowystingray.livejournal.com]

I also am weirdly, savagely comforted by the notion that the reason the writers were driven to do this was because they realized how lame (I should so have a better word, but I . . . do not) Robin/Marian really is

OMG me too! Perhaps the violent end to our ship has turned me into an equally ruthless bastard, but I can't help having a tiny feeling of comfort at knowing that at least Robin/Marian is ruined now as well. ...And I am officially a horrible horrible person. Oh well, I'll blame it on the fact that this episode (and now this whole season in reflection) has DAMAGED MY SOUL.

But, well, yes. This all goes back to how upset I was earlier this year about Marian moving to the forest, and then oddly relieved once I saw how much it just. didn't. fit. And now that's almost how I feel about this development as well. Okay, so Robin and Marian got married... and was that seriously the endgame for their relationship? Because that was all that got, and nothing else. I love that this season has been about Guy learning that his relationship with Marian could be about more than possessing Marian in name and title -- making her betrayal of him not that she refused to marry him, but that she reduced the prospect of marriage to such base terms. I'll give you myself, and that'll be that. Which is NOT what Guy ultimately wanted (and okay, I am ignoring the part where he said he would take her by force. I feel like I've done enough rationalizing with the events of this episode to be allowed one tiny bit that I just will not deal with because I can't make it make sense), which is NOT what a true all encompassing romance should be -- and yet which IS what Robin/Marian ends up being all about. So Robin/Marian got their ending, but it was full of enough suck that I really don't begrudge them their moment (although I am still slightly torn by the adorable Lucyness that filtered through her last scene when I take it out of its context of deathbed wedding. Ohhhh I will miss her so very very much).

It's so long from now that I'll probably be quite over it by then -- let us hope -- but I really don't think I'm going to feel all that compelled to watch it. The idea of this show without Lucy just really doesn't appeal to me.

I am curious enough to watch at least the first few episodes and see how they try to deal with the aftermath of all this. As I said, I think it contains some serious potential for awesome, but it depends very much on the tone they try to achieve and their overall story choices. If they try to just fill the holes with new characters in imitation of our lost ones, and get on with business as usual with the ubercamp Sheriff and those pesky outlaws, I really just don't see the point. But if they carry on from this season's overwhelming emphasis on Guy's arc, I'd probably be intrigued enough to keep watching. The possibility of bringing Marian back as a ghost struck me as super corny and lame at first, but now I kind of like the idea of doing a sort of "Amends" thing with it (because I cannot get away from the Buffy references, ahh!!). I don't know, there are a great many ifs involved, but I am interested in seeing an episode or two.

Okay, I swear I never used to have a problem with staying under the character limit, but Guy/Marian has unleashed some unsuspected wells of verbosity. So this remains to be continued...

[snowystingray.livejournal.com]

Also, I ONLY HAVE EYES FOR YOU AND SNAPE/LILY FTW!!!

BEST EPISODE OF BUFFY EVER!! Well, okay, that might be exaggerating because I have a MILLION best episodes ever, but that one is very near the top. And wow, I just have a penchant for things that rip my heart to tiny shreds and stam by soul and just make me want to cry and die all at once, don't I? Because that is exactly how I feel every time I watch that episode... Although I guess Guy/Marian is made even worse than Buffy/Angel, because at least B/A got some semblance of a happy-ish ending.

And then Snape/Lily... oh my... I feel like my current Guy apologist attitude is quite similar to how I felt about Snape after HBP came out. The Prince's Tale might have been the single most predictable chapter ever, but that was yet another happening which destroyed my whole soul and yet kept me coming back for more. Guy = Snape; Sheriff = Voldemort (except way more awesome); Robin = James (gigantically cocky bastard who's on the side of good because at least he sort of has his heart in the right place); Marian = Lily; Harry = does not exist (THANK GOD!!! WE REMAIN UNBURDENED BY ROBIN/MARIAN BABIES!).

On Guy...

[imelda72.livejournal.com]

Can I jump into the Guy analysis? (Don't you love how this uproar is totally parallel to all the Snape-discussion post HBP and DH?)

The big question: Can Guy be redeemed? It’s my deepest wish for Season 3, I think, that Guy could redeem himself as fully as Snape did. But I don’t think he has it in him. To me, the murder of Marian was a moment of character elaboration, not a turning point. It’s a culmination, a symbol of what Guy is at the deepest level. What’s left of his heart is so puny and weak that his love for Marian never moved far beyond the need to possess her. He wanted her body, her mind and her thoughts to belong to him, and to revolve around him. What Marian wanted was irrelevant. Maybe I’m relying too heavily on Season 1 Guy, but I can’t help but think of all the times he was willing to take her whether she wanted it or not. Even in this episode, he plans to bring her back to England and “force her.” (see footnote)

Yes, he was heartbroken. Marian had pretty much smashed the teensy bit of heart that had left, shredding his deepest dreams and voicing his greatest fear. But more important than his heartbreak was his selfishness. He just couldn’t let Marian “belong” to anyone else. He was like a willful child who throws his toy against the wall and then cries when it breaks. The question is, will he regret it? I mean, he already does, of course. But will he change because of it? Will he change for the better?

No. At some point in these discussions, someone pointed out how we, the viewers, were placed in Guy’s position, because if we believed at all in Marian’s feelings for him, then we were duped in exactly the same way. This is true. We who ship G/M tend to take Guy’s side. We fall for Guy’s passionate love and his scarce tender moments and his chemistry with Marian (and, oh yeah, his amazing bod), and we forget what he’s like in his daily life, away from Marian. He’s a monster. He’s a killing machine I’d call heartless if it weren’t for Marian—- remember what he did to his mistress and his own child? This is why I say that murdering Marian was just the most recent in a long line of atrocities. Rather than signify a momentous point in his life, something that will cause him to start anew, I think the murder just shows us as plain as day what Guy is really like.

If the murder does change Guy at all, I see it changing him for the worse. He killed that itty bitty good part inside of him (with Marian’s help) at the same time he killed her.

Wow. I didn't mean to rip so hard on Guy! Let me add my footnote-- though Guy says he will take Marian back to England and "force her," whatever that meant, I don't think he would have gone through with it. He wanted to, and would have tried, but based on what we've seen of him in Season 2, he could never have done it. See? I don't hate Guy, I swear! I love him! I just think that he's pretty rotten, and that there was too much evil in him for the good to win out. That said, some of what I have posted on my LJ is a bit more pro-Guy, anti-Marian.

Re: On Guy...

[snowystingray.livejournal.com]

I do think you've hit the nail on the head with whether we can see Marian's death as either a turning point or a deciding point for Guy. It really could go either way, couldn't it? Personally, though, I hope it ends up being a turning point, if only because I've already invested so much time into this whole Guy redemption arc, haha. I need something solid in return! But my own selfish needs aside, I think it might also be better for the show. Unless they intend on killing Guy off early on in season three, I don't really see how this Guy-as-the-ultimate-evil can be sustained for thirteen episodes. Every show needs a brilliant, charismatic baddie -- but that's what the Sheriff is for. There's so much wasted character potential if they're just going to turn Guy into a remorseless stabbing machine; and even then, I do believe that was their original intention for Guy way back in the beginning of season one (hence the baby abandoning plot which is never ever alluded to again; it's as if they started out making him super evil, and then realized it was more fun to play around with the gray areas), but they couldn't slog through such straightforward characterization for long. It would also be a total waste of Richard Armitage, if you ask me, so here's hoping they give him something more to do than glower behind the Sheriff and gut random passersby.

But more important than his heartbreak was his selfishness. He just couldn’t let Marian “belong” to anyone else. He was like a willful child who throws his toy against the wall and then cries when it breaks. The question is, will he regret it? I mean, he already does, of course. But will he change because of it? Will he change for the better?

That is such an apt comparison, and why I think there's still a lot of room left to explore Guy's character. Going back to the Snape/Lily parallel, Snape's motivation continued to be very obsessive, selfish, and single-minded, even when he managed to redirect those feelings to fighting for something good. He never became a kind or compassionate person, but he was able to make his shortcomings work to his advantage. So, no, I don't think it's entirely implausible to take Guy on a similar journey, but I guess we'll have to wait and see!

Oh, and I just went and read the entry you posted on your journal, and there are soooo many great things to comment on. So, um, expect even more rambling from me in the near future (sorry it's taking a while, I just have such a flurry of Robin Hood meta swirling around in my inbox).

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

I'm looking at some different aspects of the episode (because the Guy/Marian shipper seem to have that angle completely and deftly covered).

First off, I can't help but feel that Robin and Marian brought this on themselves to a degree. There are so many things they could have done to get around having an ending this tragic. She could have married him in the forest. He could have killed the Sheriff a lot earlier. She could have slipped the Sheriff some frickin' poison rather than try to run him through. They kept putting off their relationship, which felt like part of the tragedy. They could have easily said "screw it, I don't care WHEN the king comes back from the crusades, let's try to have a little bit of a normal life". But no.

Which brings me to a second point. Why is Robin so blindingly loyal to Richard? Yes, I understand that the king is made of awesome, but that doesn't explain away the fact that he's left his kingdom to go to hell in a handbasket while he goes off to kill infidels, something that Robin has always claimed to have an issue with and one of whom is his friend. This makes Richard great how? Sure, he's "England", but someone needs to tell him to get his butt BACK to England and not assume things will just be peachy leaving your advisors in charge. Was there NO other way to communicate to him the issues going on his kingdom? Letter? Messenger? Heck, carrier pigeon? For Robin having so much loyalty to him, Richard is a negligent king.

And the third thing is that part of the reason I see Robin/Marian ending before it began is because can you really see those two personalities having a great happily ever after? They're both volatile people with more than a normal share of arrogance and impulsivity. Yes they loved each other, but I see it being a stormy marriage. Robin tries to push people around and Marian refuses to be pushed and look how many blow ups they had before they were even married. I think the relationship was beautiful to watch at this level, but I also think that it wouldn't have been so great at the next level, so the writers ended it here.

[snowystingray.livejournal.com]

There are certainly a lot of frustrating choices made by this program, aren't there? This whole season has been about how they can't kill the Sheriff, only to have them end by trying to kill the Sheriff. And... well... what's the difference now? The fact that he's doing something against the king? I'm pretty sure that's been the situation ALL SEASON LONG, so the action and immediacy felt pretty forced to me.

And then, oh goodness, don't even get me started on Robin's confusing attitudes toward Richard. So Robin hates all of the taxes that go to pay for the war, and yet King Richard is the one waging it? Robin wants to defend the poor on the home front, and yet drops everything the moment he has a mission for Richard? I really love the way they dealt with this in last season's "Tattoo? What Tattoo?", but I feel like they let a lot of that conflict go.

As for Robin/Marian, well... I'm sure you already know my feelings on that, haha. I can understand that they had to keep them apart for so long to maintain the romantic longing, but I just find it hilarious that once they removed all the obstacles in the end of 2.07 and send Marian off to her "happily ever after," it's like the writers suddenly discovered that it really wasn't that easy after all. Things refused to fall neatly into place, so they got Marian back to the castle first thing. Good decision, if you ask me. But then they apparently couldn't give up on pursuing Robin/Marian, even if it meant completely butchering Marian's character in more ways than one. BAD DECISION! Siiigh...

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

I don't understand how anyone in the gang could justify NOT killing Vasay. I mean they couldn't get a much worse sheriff if they tried. It seems like someone should have been smart enough to realize that this was destined to happen eventually.

And the whole Richard thing, why don't they explain why Robin is so viciously loyal? Robin doesn't agree with the crusade yet he's determined to save the guy who started it. There's SUCH a confused attitude about the crusade itself. Honestly the only movie or tv show I've ever seen that deals with the crusades fairly is Kingdom of Heaven. I'm not expecting rocket science from Robin Hood, but at least some explaination of what's going on.

And I think part of the Marian/Robin issue is that Marian was SUCH a strong character, but also immature and Robin was such a flawed character that they can't be together happily without having someone's character butchered. I think they realized that Marian would NOT be blithely skipping about the woods and following Robin's lead. She's too headstrong. All other versions of Marian have been strong, but they're also mature and are willing to back down to a degree. This version of Marian doesn't, which is why her sudden shmoopiness and doing of irrational things seemed really out of place. Marian is more subtle than that, but subtle don't bring home the bacon when it comes to running off an becoming an outlaw. If Marian had stayed in character, she would have stayed at the castle the whole time and manipulated things from the background, which is why I don't understand why they didn't make it so she had to go on the run after the punching at the altar debacle.

[snowystingray.livejournal.com]

Obviously the destruction of Nottingham was a big deterrent to killing the Sheriff, but when weighed against the destruction of all of England, it doesn't seem like an awful price to pay. So, yes, WTF. Lesser of two evils, people -- they should have bumped off the Sheriff much much earlier. Really, that whole agreement with Prince John was thrown in to give the writers an excuse for why Robin wouldn't just do the deed already. I guess I can't complain, though, because now that Marian is gone, the Sheriff has jumped up to the no. two spot of best characters on the show. *clings to his insane campiness*

I think Robin and Marian are both mature to some degrees, but just in different areas of their lives. Marian seems to be more mature about her responsibilities, about sticking through unpleasant situations and making certain immediate sacrifices for greater future gains (WHICH JUST UGGHHHHH I COMPLETELY CANNOT RECONCILE WITH HER IN THIS EPISODE). It makes her very adaptable, but I think it also makes it difficult for her to have any one specific end goal in mind. She is simply not ready to settle down. Whereas Robin used the Crusades as a chance for him to outgrow his need for glory, to instead look forward to the prospect of building a home with Marian once he returned to Locksley, their time apart had pretty much the opposite effect on Marian.

[imelda72.livejournal.com]

Um, absolutely frickin' ditto about the agreement between Sheriff and Prince John. If that wasn't a cheap cop-out device, then there never was one. First season, it was "Robin doesn't kill." Since that motto's pretty much shot to hell second season, they had to come up with something else. So weak.

But I'm glad to hear you love the Sheriff (perhaps) as much as I do!! Now that only 2 of your favorite characters are left (I'm assuming no. 1 is Guy), maybe we'll see some more adorably flirt scenes between them: "Kissy, kissy, Guy!"

[snowystingray.livejournal.com]

Using caps and exclamation points as an indication of importance, my list used to go something like: MARIANNNNNNN!!!!!!!, then GUY!!!!!, then SHERIFF!! And then for the outlaws, probably ALLAN!, MUCH!, Djaq!, Will, Little John, robin. Okay, jut kidding; poor Robin, I do rag on him rather a lot. He can get a capitalized name from me, at least.

If Marian had to die, I'm at least glad that the Sheriff has stuck around. His dynamic with Guy is always interesting, and I'm sure that'll only intensify next season with Guy possibly seeing his relationship with the Sheriff as the reason why he could never be with Marian/be a good person. Ohhh, the angst. And I also have a secret liking for Robin/Sheriff. So, um, HoYay all around!

[arcadiaego.livejournal.com]

I didn't see this episode so I can't really comment. Except that this post is making me remember about Deathly Hallows and how JKR turned Remus into a complete tool for no reason and then killed him. And how she made Snape pathetic as well. *gloom* SCREW ALL WRITERS.

[snowystingray.livejournal.com]

Against all reason, I actually totally bought into the gooey mushy Snape/Lily stuff, so I kind of hope that RH takes a similar direction with Guy/Marian -- but I just CANNOT get over Lupin in DH. Uggghhhh. To the point where the connection didn't even really occur to me much while typing out this post because I have repressed the fact that it ever happened. Really, though, that's such a great analogy for what they did to Marian in this episode -- they needed some dramatic tension for the finale, made a much beloved character do some really really stupid stuff in order to fuel that tension, and then killed them off at the end because they realized that they'd already screwed that character out of everything which had once made them great, so once they served their purpose they were free to go. RIP MARIAN AND LUPIN, both awesome characters unjustly butchered by their authors long before they were actually killed by the baddies.

[imelda72.livejournal.com]

Amen to that. Lupin's character arc in DH is such a travesty; there's no justifying it at all. I, too, try to block it from my memory. (I don't agree quite as much about Marian, but I'll get to that when I post my response to your entry!!)

[snowystingray.livejournal.com]

Upon reflection, and reading other people's thoughts on her characterization, I think I was a bit harsh to Marian in my first viewing... It just feels so abrupt, though, because even though there was presumably all this time in between Nottingham and the Holy Lands for her to become totally desperate and jaded with Guy, we never got any real indication of it. Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

[imelda72.livejournal.com]

This is what I wrote the other day about Marian:

I want to defend Marian, who’s been derisively called “Mrs. Robin Hood” in the finale! I tend to think Marian has always been a little more reckless than you do. When she was living in the woods, for example, I was surprised you found her behavior out-of-character! She was a bit more impulsive in that episode and in the finale than usual, because of her father’s recent death, but even so it was pretty typical for her. She’s always been reckless—- venturing out at the most dangerous times as the Night Watchman, always (unceasingly, foolishly) talking back to the Sheriff and making pleas to Guy. She spies, toys with Guy, sends messages to Robin, defends her father, and jumps into fights all the time; for me, she is always daring, and a bit wild.

At times I can see what you’re saying about Marian as a politician or a strategist. But for me, I found her most out-of-character those times she insisted on returning to the castle! She's always so eager to fight the Sheriff gung-ho, I couldn't undersand it. (My interpretation is that she secretly, sub-consciously DID want to go back to Guy, as Robin feared! Part of her enjoyed the game she played with him—- not maliciously, but because she liked walking the dangerous line, and seeing if she could change him.)

Back to the finale—- because I don’t see her as the clever strategist you do, and especially if you consider the episode storyline, I think her character’s behavior made sense. Even if you claim that she doesn’t really care about the king (I disagree), she knows that if Richard dies, the Sheriff becomes unstoppable. She knows this and can’t let it happen. For her, just as for Robin and the Sheriff, this is endgame. This is one of the few things that would cause her to break her vow to Guy—- like you, I think she meant it in earnest, at the time. In any case, being the foolhardy Marian she is, of course she went after the Sheriff! Same way she asked Guy to kill him, something I think a lot of us had always expected her to do.

Note: Sorry this doesn't address the issue of Marian's behavior towards Guy. I wrote a bit about that on my LJ, and I'd love to see what you think. But I can't bear to make this comment any longer (especially considering the long comment on Guy I'm about to add!)

[snowystingray.livejournal.com]

Well, like I said, I do feel slightly more balanced in my view of Marian after letting the episode set in for a few days, so I definitely have to agree with a lot of the things you brought up. It's just that both Marian and Guy spend much of the show playing two different people -- Marian changing depending on whether she's with Robin in the forest or Guy in the castle, and Guy showing different sides of himself with either Marian or the Sheriff -- and of course their identity that I had hoped to be revealed as their "true" colours ended up being the side that was killed off.

She’s always been reckless—- venturing out at the most dangerous times as the Night Watchman, always (unceasingly, foolishly) talking back to the Sheriff and making pleas to Guy. She spies, toys with Guy, sends messages to Robin, defends her father, and jumps into fights all the time; for me, she is always daring, and a bit wild.

I do think that she's always been a risk taker, but it seemed so much more overt in this episode. Going back to season one, when she used to spit the word, "Fool!" at Robin at pretty much every opportunity, I felt like she turned around and did those same things she used to be so critical of. She was clearly desperate to stop the Sheriff from going to the Holy Lands, but it was just so much more rushed and foolish than I personally think Marian would normally have been. For starters, she doesn't even know what his plan is; when she's trying to talk Allan into helping her, he rightly mentions that there are so many ifs in her plan. And, okay, so she does turn out to be right; but there are other ways to delay the Sheriff besides killing him, and other ways to kill him besides trying to "sneak up" with a giant friggen sword. I guess under the circumstances, I can understand why Marian made the choices she did, although I think it was a little too obvious that it was mostly just a means of pushing forward the action. Everything after that felt like a very logical progression of the relationship between Guy and Marian, but the initial castle fiasco was too plot device-y for my liking.

Even if you claim that she doesn’t really care about the king (I disagree), she knows that if Richard dies, the Sheriff becomes unstoppable.

I do think that Marian cares about the king, but not in Robin's sense of King Richard = England. I almost kind of feel like this episode did a lot to support that idea that the king, one individual fallible person, can't really sum up the entire national spirit or represent everything honourable and righteous about the life they're fighting for. I mean, he gets easily duped by his enemies, nearly falls for several assassination attempts, and only escapes dying from his poor judgment due to some very very good timing by Robin and the gang. I'm sure you've already seen missmomoko's fantastic annotated picspam (http://missmomoko.livejournal.com/281353.html), but this one (http://pics.livejournal.com/missmomoko/pic/00303w8p/s640x480) is so totally perfect. And, well, all joking aside, I think the king's rather disappointing show in this episode was intentional. They all showed up to the Holy Lands thinking that it was all or nothing, and yet... Okay, so they saved the king. And? The Sheriff and Gisborne still got away, they still didn't manage to rescue Marian, and the situation in England is pretty much the same as it's always been. I think it was a wake-up call for the gang, and why most of them decided to go back home rather than to stay with the king.